Pack aggression

[Bratpack]

Hi all. We have three dogs and an issue with aggression towards other dogs when we're out. We have had Coco since she was 8 weeks (she's now 3), and took her to puppy training/socialisation. As she got older she got more unpredictable when meeting other dogs in the park, sometimes playing (although behaving in a dominant manner) but sometimes acting quite aggressively. This unpredictability became worse over time (with the aggression showing more frequently than play) so we became cautious of allowing her to meet any new dogs, and put her on the lead if we saw one approaching. On lead she barks aggressively towards the other dog until we take her away. I tried taking her to socialisation recently, but although she would ignore other dogs if distracted with a treat, she still tends to bark at them. She has always lived with another dog, first with an older lab bitch who sadly died, then after a 6-week gap with Megan, another 2-year old lab cross bitch we adopted from a rescue. Coco is fine with dogs she knows, and we walked regularly with her litter-brother, and his calm and friendly presence seemed to help when meeting other dogs. When we moved house and had space, we set about adopting a larger male dog, and found Paddy, a 2 year old lab retriever cross who seemed good with other dogs at the rescue (although he had had a fight with another male, apparently instigated by the other dog). All three get on very well, with no sign of aggression within the pack, and they have settled down together with no fights. We have had Paddy 4 months. We live in a fairly remote place, and only rarely meet other dogs on our walks, however, when we do both Paddy and Coco now respond aggressively, with barking and growling and pulling if on leads. On Sunday the dogs were off lead and spotted a small dog before I had a chance to put them on their leads, and both Paddy and Coco ran at him, and Paddy grabbed him by the scruff. Luckily the owner was able to pick him up, and I got hold of our two (Megan recalled to my husband without joining in the "fight"). The dog was scared but not hurt, and the owner was remarkably fine about it. However, the apprehension about them meeting other dogs is spoiling our walks, and I would hate to only be able to lead-walk them, as they love running in the woods. I am hoping to consult the behaviourist from the rescue, but any additional hints and tips would be appreciated. Sorry this got a bit long-winded....

[nick_j007]

Your problem was reinforced (or not improved anyway) by keeping her away from other dogs and placing on the lead when seeing other dogs.

Work with the behaviourist to set up good practice with your group of dogs to overcome these problems.

Good luck in your efforts.

[Bratpack]

Thanks for your response, Nick. I have browsed through some of the other questions on aggression, and appreciate the sense of your replies. We have an appointment tomorrow morning with a local behaviorist whom I spoke to on the phone last night. I reserve judgement until I see how she is with the dogs. She did say a couple of things that I found hard to agree with, like not allowing the dogs to play fetch with balls (it reinforces their chase instinct, apparently). Do you have a view on that one?

The question of whether to put Coco on a lead when seeing another dog is a tough one - we had had several instances of her behaving in a dominant/aggressive way with other dogs which caused disapproval or distress to the owners. Not sure what dog etiquette is when your dog is mouthing another's neck... I thought the general rule was if one dog was on the lead that it creates greater parity if all are.

[nick_j007]

Originally Posted by Bratpack

Thanks for your response, Nick. I have browsed through some of the other questions on aggression, and appreciate the sense of your replies. We have an appointment tomorrow morning with a local behaviorist whom I spoke to on the phone last night. I reserve judgement until I see how she is with the dogs. She did say a couple of things that I found hard to agree with, like not allowing the dogs to play fetch with balls (it reinforces their chase instinct, apparently). Do you have a view on that one?

Chasing balls is of course great fun, but like all things needs to be done with a degree of control. Some dogs I see can be over-hyped as a result of excessive repititive throwing/fetching. This is not good for a dog that is then aggressive say as it (IMO) does nothing to create a calm attentive dog on the owner. Obsession is not healthy, especially if the dog is prone to aggression. So I can see the logic, and see no harm in it. Go with the flow and see what is said.

The question of whether to put Coco on a lead when seeing another dog is a tough one - we had had several instances of her behaving in a dominant/aggressive way with other dogs which caused disapproval or distress to the owners. Not sure what dog etiquette is when your dog is mouthing another's neck... I thought the general rule was if one dog was on the lead that it creates greater parity if all are.

I can quite understand your decision, and it's a tough call because with no control she could aggress yes. This is where a good behaviour specialist can help guide you through such interaction. I would favour a muzzle and long line approach, so the lead does not cause tension, and the muzzle creates safety allowing you and your dog to remain integrated but safe and overcome concerns this way. Good luck with tomorrow! PM me with details if you wish.

Hope that helps.

Nick

[Bratpack]

Hi Nick

Thanks again. The question of a muzzle is an interesting one too - we have put a muzzle on Coco very occasionally (notably when we were in France with her and Megan) and the response is astonishing (from owners, not dogs), in that people give her a much wider berth when muzzled - strange as she is not then *able* to bite! I should say that she has never bitten a dog, if you discount mouthing the neck. She has emphatically never drawn blood, even though she has been bitten herself by a terrier, who instigated the fight on that occasion.

On the question of playing with balls, we use it as a means of directing the dogs' attention to us when out with them off lead. Paddy and Megan are extremely game-focussed (so I can see how that might spill over into obsession), but it's a good way of distracting them from other dogs, as long as said dogs are a goodly way away (like on a big beach or park). We try to limit it, and always take the ball off them at the end. Coco can take or leave fetch games and is completely non-obsessive about them!

I'll update about tomorrow's session.

[nick_j007]

yes, muzzled dogs create quite a different response form people. This can be most advantageous with dog to people aggression to begin with as it gives the dog space...not that this is applicable with you

If your dog is not a biter, but very vocal, I may after assessing the dog myself not see the need for a muzzle so I concede it may not be necessary. However I would rather err on the cautios side once getting really close and I want to feel relaxed about any possible outcomes. Your dog may be more stressed during the future dog meetings on the basis that you are going out of your way to meet other dogs rather than to move away...see what I mean?

Balls and so on can be used to great effect as a distraction to bring away from trouble yes. You'll need to work this out with your trainer no doubt. Follow your instincts with advice they offer.

good luck.

Nick

[Bratpack]

Well the session was great, and we covered quite a few of the basics, and I have confidence that we can work through this problem now (instead of the apocalyptic feeling I had after the incident on Sunday). The trainer doesn't feel that our dogs are intrinsically aggressive, just a bit out of control and excitable. So we're going to work towards us being in control at all times, even when they're off the lead. It will be interesting to see if we can manage it! Meanwhile, we're walking on the lead...

[nick_j007]

Well done!

Best of luck in your efforts. These things can take weeks/months to resolve, so just take a steady approach and pace yourself .

Nick