Agression help please

[hobson]

I'm new to the forum and almost sorry my post isn't on a more positive note!

I'm in need of help and advice regarding our German Shepherds.

We have had our bitch Storm since she was 8 weeks old (she's two and a half now)and have done plenty of training with her all the way through, upto a few months ago she was incredibly well behaved and we were very proud of her!

In October she had a litter of pups, she only had two and as we live on a farm and have lots of space and are keen walkers we kept them both! (we had planned on keeping one definitely, two possibly!)
We have done training with the boys, and kept up with Storms too, they get good walks with other dogs, plenty of interaction and socialisation and have plenty of love from us.

Recently though Storm has become increasingly aggressive to other dogs, at first we just thought it was her protecting the pups, so verbally discouraged it but allowed some leeway for mothering instincts, but they're six months old now.

It started off as the boys running over to other dogs wanting to play, and storm would follow, all fine, but now it seems to have taken a more agressive turn, where they all run over at once and seem to pile in together barking etc, which obviousley scares and overwhelms most dogs (and owners) and leads to the dogs then snapping at our three, at which point Storm gets agressive. there haven't been any biting or injuries yet, but obviousley we want to avoid that at all costs.

We regularly walk with some friends who have two Czech wolfdogs and they are fine with those, likewise the wire haired terrier owned by another friend, but Storm seems to have a huge dislike for our neighbours two black labs, she used to just tell them off if they got too giddy or nipped her, but it's gone from having a go back in defence to an almost attack whenever she sees them.

We are a bit stuck as her behaviour seems a bit random and varies from dog to dog, and the boys are copying her so we need to get it sorted before it gets worse, it'd also be nice to stop them running over to almost every dog they see barking!

We've talked about shock collars but i'd rather find out why they're behaving in such a way and try to resolve it before resorting to those.

Any ideas please?

[RobD-BCactive]

Originally Posted by hobson

Recently though Storm has become increasingly aggressive to other dogs, at first we just thought it was her protecting the pups, so verbally discouraged it but allowed some leeway for mothering instincts, but they're six months old now.

It started off as the boys running over to other dogs wanting to play, and storm would follow, all fine, but now it seems to have taken a more agressive turn, where they all run over at once and seem to pile in together barking etc, which obviousley scares and overwhelms most dogs (and owners) and leads to the dogs then snapping at our three, at which point Storm gets agressive
...
We've talked about shock collars but i'd rather find out why they're behaving in such a way and try to resolve it before resorting to those.

Any ideas please?

OK, first thought it is likely that your "verbal discouragement" was counter productive. A protective mother, not only is anxious about her off spring, but then has the problem of having her Humans correcting her on most likely the "bark level" of the doggie discipline scale ie yelling. Dogs are far more subtle and escalate their signals if the other dog does not respond. It's only the 7 or 8 out of 10 on the scale that most people recognise eg) growling, or barking. Close to the attack threshold!

First step, is managing the issue by controlling the dogs better. Letting them run up to other dogs is impolite and inconsiderate. Pups ought to learn not to do that, especially on leash dogs that may be reactive; by being on a line and then released off leash to play with permission.

By having poor control of the dogs, you have allowed this issue to escalate in a vicious self fulfilling cycle, where aggresssive signals cause the reaction, which reinforces the fear based aggression that causes the unsociability.

For the Mother & Pups, I wonder how much of this problem, is the reason why most breeders of Working dogs like sheepdogs keep at most 1 or 2 from a litter for training; the bond between them is going to be very strong, so they're harder to control. And many of those dogs never leave their secluded farm or have to pass stranger dogs on walks.

Think you could consult a good ADPT behaviourist who observes and advises you on the how, why & difficulty of addressing the impolite greeting and sociability problems.

As for Shock Collars, do you really think an electrical stimulus designed to coerce a dog, is going to address the underlying issue of poor socialisation with stranger dogs and you as owners not having effective control of so many dogs? I'm going to be blunt but the dog is not the problem, the problem is the way you handled it!

BTW In Wales shock collar usage is a criminal offence, possibly incurring heavy fine and gaol term, presumably if you were there you would have heard.

[Pawsitive]

Agree completely with Rob, who has given you some brilliant advice.

Please don't go down the shock collars route. They are likely to just create more problems (ie increased aggression from associating other dogs with the pain). You are also likely to make your dogs more fearful, thus opening the door to a host of other problems.

If the behaviour has changed significantly and suddenly then a vet check is in order but I'm inclined to think Rob's perception is right and that primarily you just need to adapt how you manage the situation.

[hobson]

Thankyou for the replies, and we are in no way upset at them, we'd prefer honesty and bluntness so that we can deal with the problems.

Having had lots of discussion last night over this we have fully accepted it is our fault, and that we have let our control over them slip, this is in part i think due to the pups getting older and trying it on more and us letting it slide.

Although we live on a farm they are not working dogs and certainly not guard dogs, and even though we have great access to land we have always taken them places where walking dogs off the lead is welcome (windsor great park and surrounding areas) it is only over the last month or so that they have become more boisterous.
Whenever we meet dogs who are on the lead we get ours to sit and stay next to us until they either pass or the owner indicates it is fine for them to play. but when dogs are off the lead as they are in most places we walk then we let them mingle as do the other owners.

Regarding the verbal discipline, we never shout and scream at our dogs as we know that it causes more problems, and it looks very unpleasant for others too, we change voice tone slightly but never shout.

The pups are not the biggest problem as we know we need to control them better and show better leadership to them, which is something we've started doing more today and will keep on top of in future, our main worry is Storm, as she seems to be more aggressive to certain dogs, especially our neighbours labs, who she used to play with fine when she was a pup, there were a couple of incidents where they took her toys or food, but that was ages ago.

The shock collar idea was a last resort idea at best, i was not in favour of them at all as my reasoning was the same as mentioned; causing pain and discomfort is ony going to make the dog associate that with other dogs, and more than that i just didn't want to cause the dogs any uneccessary pain.

I read that bad pack leadership can cause confusion and more aggressiveness as the dogs don't know where they are, is it possible us letting our control slip has caused all this?

[RobD-BCactive]

Originally Posted by hobson

The pups are not the biggest problem as we know we need to control them better and show better leadership to them, which is something we've started doing more today and will keep on top of in future, our main worry is Storm, as she seems to be more aggressive to certain dogs, especially our neighbours labs, who she used to play with fine when she was a pup, there were a couple of incidents where they took her toys or food, but that was ages ago.

The shock collar idea was a last resort idea at best, i was not in favour of them at all as my reasoning was the same as mentioned; causing pain and discomfort is ony going to make the dog associate that with other dogs, and more than that i just didn't want to cause the dogs any uneccessary pain.

I read that bad pack leadership can cause confusion and more aggressiveness as the dogs don't know where they are, is it possible us letting our control slip has caused all this?

The thing to address is the root cause, that is the fear that causes aggressive signals, likely brought on by Dam's pregnancy and confinement with small pups.

What you do is "Counter Conditioning", so Storm actually is happy to meet the other dogs. That is done by breaking the cycle, passing at distance and rewarding calm behaviour. Sitting is a control measure, but isn't as ideal as simply having good things happen, when Storm sees another dog.

So personally I would avoid narrow spaces, pass dogs with distance, if possible slowly approach the Labs, then turn away and reward with game, or some great food reward like Liver cake. The idea is to get her thinking about playing ball, or yummy Liver cake when she sees another dog, rather than feeling afraid. With time, you can pass more closely, and get air sniffs and such, greeting. But you manage carefully to prevent spats and setbacks.

Unfortunately very many ppl have cute pups free running, then the young adult dogs approach even on leash nervous dogs, ignoring the owners recall.

Consulting a dog socialisation expert, who has non-reactive stooge dogs, is therefore advisable. Now ADPT doesn't endorse or certify behaviourists, it is a pet trainer organisation though many have socialisation/behavioural expertise "For trainers you are lucky in the UK to have APDT assessed trainers - super important org.. Welcome to APDT - Association of Pet Dog Trainers UK". There is however CAPBT - COAPE Association of Pet Behaviourists and Trainers. In the US there's required qualifications and certifcation for behaviiourists, many in Britain are unqualified Dog Whisperer types; I would avoid any self proclaimed behaviourist that thinks being "Pack Leader" is important.

True leadership is about positively and benevolently teaching and controlling the dogs, not about who eats first, or who goes through doors, or correcting a dog for looking at another one, or worse for growling like you see certain TV personality do. So for instance to calm my dog if he's barking, I ignore him if it's attention seeking then praise a quiet sit. Otherwise I call him to me, have him lie down if need be and settle, but all the interaction is measured and calm, so he can unwind rather than get himself into trouble.

Finally I'll refer you to the AVSAB's position statement on "Dominance Theory" & Pack Leader talk that's popular with general dog owning public and TV - http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

[Pawsitive]

Originally Posted by hobson

I read that bad pack leadership can cause confusion and more aggressiveness as the dogs don't know where they are, is it possible us letting our control slip has caused all this?

Unlikely - we aren't ever really 'pack leaders' in the way that some trainers / behaviourists would have us believe, not least because we are not dogs (and our dogs know we are not dogs) - and moreover dogs are not wolves and behave differently to alpha wolf hierarchy regardless of genetic similarities (but that's a whole 'nother debate )

Sounds like Storm needs her confidence building and Rob has made some really good suggestions.

Distraction, de-sensitization and counter conditioning are all going to help massively.

Is there something Storm loves above everything else? Maybe a special toy that can come out when she sees another dog - partly as a distraction and partly so that seeing another dog = something good happening. (Or favourite food / extra special treats etc)

You should reward all good behaviour - even if she just looks and then looks away without reacting or responds to a 'watch me' / 'just watch' or any other command from you.

Also, try to keep her under her reactivity threshold which means you're setting her up for success (again, Rob's points about distance and slow approaches are very good!)

Goodluck!!